|
Hi. It’s
Michael Senoff with
http://www.hardtofindseminars.com. Over the last few years,
Mike Pavlish has made millions of dollars as an A list copywriter
for natural health supplements, health publishers, financial
investment publishers and business opportunities.
If your a direct marketer, follow
Mike Pavlish’s advice and it won’t be long before you’re years ahead
of your competition. This interview is 60 minutes. Now, let’s get
going.
Michael: Mike, how much do you
earn as a copywriter?
Mike: Michael, to give you
an idea, in recent years alone, I’ve paid taxes on income of over
$4.2 million dollars.
Michael: Now, I’m sure when you
first started, it wasn’t always like that. I want you to take me
back to the beginning. How did these all started?
Mike: I started copywriting
in 1978 and the reason I did was, as an entrepreneur, I owned
businesses that relied heavily on sales and marketing. I had to
sell my own products and get leads for my sales force.
Michael: What were some of the
businesses you owned.
Mike: One of them was like a
ValPack type business. I had 14 salespeople and I wrote the direct
mail to get leads for them.
Michael: Was it a franchise deal
or you started it on your own?
Mike: No, it was my own.
And interestingly enough, it’s the same company as I have today,
which is Profit Boosters.
Michael: Really? So, what was
the idea? You were selling advertising to local businesses to
advertise with your Profit Boosters Direct Mail Pack?
Mike: Right.
Michael: So you wrote copy to get
potential advertisers to contact you?
Mike: Right. And the next
business I was in was Rare Coins. As an investor and collector
myself, I started an investment company that sold investors rare
investment coins, and I did the copywriting for that.
Michael: Were you at the same
time getting all the newsletters like Gary North all the newsletters
on the Rare Coin and Numismatic investments?
Mike: Yes, Howard Ruff, in
fact I did copywriting for Howard Ruff.
Michael: I’m going to guess,
that’s where - maybe you’re introduced to Abraham and Gary Halbert
and all those guys.
Mike: Yes.
Michael: Were you studying any of
the copywriting masters?
Mike: I was studying John
Caples. I still think he has the best books for a person who wants
to become a great copywriter. I also learned a lot from scientific
advertising by Claude Hopkins
Michael: What do you think of
Gary Halbert’s stuff? Did you know him ?
Mike: Yes, I knew Gary for
many, many years.
Michael: How were you introduced
to him?
Mike: I was introduced to
Gary by Toni Keyes who had a sweepstake-related company in Las
Vegas. Actually, what happened with Gary Halbert was funny. It was
right before my wedding in 1990. He wanted me to speak at one of
his seminars that cost people at that time $5,000 a person. It was
in Marathon, Florida where he lived.
He wanted me to
come down and speak to his attendees there. I think I was going to
speak four days before my wedding or something, and I told him
that. He said, “Screw the wedding, this is important.” So I came
down and spoke there. My wife got to relax before the wedding, so
it worked out good. And then I spoke at his seminar of the century
in Los Angeles.
Michael: Did you study his stuff
and read his newsletter?
Mike: Yes.
Michael: Where you impressed with
his skills as a copywriter? Did you learn from him?
Mike: Yes, most definitely.
Michael: How about Ben Suarez,
did you ever meet him?
Mike: Yes, I have. I’ve
written for him and his companies.
Michael: You’ve written for him,
okay. Is Dan Kennedy from your area, too?
Mike: Yes. I just saw Dan
Kennedy a couple weeks ago. Dan is only about 20 miles from me.
Michael: How else did you improve
your copywriting?
Mike: I try to be on every
mailing list. I get tons of direct mail packages from marketers.
When I see the same ones over and over again, I know it’s a winner
and I study it. A lot of what is being told to direct marketers
today on copywriting to sell their product is a bad advice to put it
mildly and just wrong, to put it bluntly, and it’s going to cost
them a fortune in lost revenue because what works in copywriting,
now, in a more competitive market … is totally different from what
worked best in copywriting even just a few years ago!
Michael: So let’s talk about some
of those differences. What do you see that others teach about
copywriting, what is their message? And based on your experience,
your long track record of legendary success, what really works best
today?
Mike: Let me start with
headlines. Common advice is that headlines should use so-called
power words and give outrageous promises to get people’s attention
and interest. Their theory is the louder you yell, the more you’re
going to sell. Well, the truth is people have a built-in “Bullshit
Detector” these days, so the more hyperbole and power words you put
into a headline, the worse it will do!
Let me give you a
couple of actual examples. This headline is for a pain relief
supplement. There are two headlines that were tested. The first
was, “This amazing pain eliminator instantly erases back pain from
your body with no drugs and no surgery,” and the second headline
was, “The new way to end your back pain.” The first headline is
chosen as the winner by most people, but it lost in an actual test.
The second headline got 237% more orders. The reason is it has the
news factor to it. People want to hear what’s new and what’s news
and it doesn’t use the so-called power words. It is more
believable. There’s another thing I want to bring out before I give
you another example. I call it the “differential transformation
element.” You have to immediately say in your copy these days, as
what it is that you’re selling and what makes it different or
unique. People aren’t going to even read a promotion it if they
think it’s the same old, same old. Like if you’re trying to sell
them, let’s say a pain relief supplement that has glucosamine and
MSM in it, because that’s what every other pain relief supplement in
the world contains. You have to tell them right up front what’s
new, what makes your product unique and different to gain their
readership.
Michael: Yes, that makes sense.
It sounds like the USP, Unique Selling Proposition. You’ve got to
do your research to stand out compared to everything else out there.
Mike: Yes, bingo, bingo,
bingo. The key word there is research. That’s what copywriters and
direct marketers don’t do enough. You must research to find what
the market wants the most, and what they’re not getting now that you
can give them that can only be done through hard painstaking
research and it takes dozens and dozens of hours.
Michael: I’d love to know your
process on the research. Take us to through your process.
Mike: I do a lot of
copywriting in the natural health supplement field with anti-aging,
pain relief, men’s potency issues, prostate issues, memory, et
cetera. Today I’m working on a project from an old client for a
vitamin B-12 and folate patch. My experience tells me, if I try to
sell another B-12 product, it’s just too vanilla, too common and
people don’t see the need for it, or they can just buy it at
Wal-Mart. So I researched and found out the nutrient folate has to
be added to vitamin B-12 in the right dosages to make it most
effective. Then my research led me to discover that vitamin B-12
deficiency is very common.
I then researched
the medical journals to find studies that made my case about the
deficiency and why folate needs to be included. I researched
further and found out all the different health problems that are
affected by vitamin B-12 deficiency. All this research led me to a
concept that there’s a link that brings all these health problems
together, and now you can relieve these health problems with this
product.
Michael: Are others selling a
similar product?
Mike: Sure, but nobody else
is using my unique hook I discovered from research.
Michael: So you research
supplement information and also how competition is selling the
product?
Mike: Yes.
Michael: All right. So you knew
the competition. This project you’re working on, is it a direct
mail letter or space ad?
Mike: It’s going to be a
12-page sale letter. It will be used online and also for direct
mail.
Michael: Are you trying to
position your product differently?
Mike: Absolutely.
Michael: There are some medical
studies that are not that credible. How do you know which are the
credible studies?
Mike: Well, the most
credible studies are those published in a major medical journal,
double-blind and placebo-controlled.
Michael: How does all your
research come together for this product?
Mike: This is rough, the
headline will be “new medical research reveals the natural missing
link solution for fatigue, memory loss, weak brittle bones, joint
pain and other health problems.”
Michael: You also use live focus
groups for your research. Tell me what a focus group is and how
you use it in your research?
Mike: I have a group of 10
people that are in my office complex that I bring together about
once a week and buy them lunch. They are my focus group for an
hour. I show them headlines, ask them questions, ask them what
they’re objections about the product would be, and things of that
nature. And then, if I need to, I’ll go to a larger focus group.
Michael: So, have you been doing
this for many years?
Mike: Yes, for about 20
years.
Michael: Just to get outside
opinions.
Mike: I want to know what
the average person, my prospect, is thinking about my product and
the issue it deals with.
Michael: Can you give me an
example how one of your focus groups helped your copywriting
results?
Mike: Sure. When my focus
group learned of the study results, they seemed very interested in
the product. So I asked how many take a vitamin B-12 supplement
now. None did. I asked; “Okay, well, why don’t you take one?”
And the consensus was “Well, I think a deficiency would show up in
my exam with my doctor,” or “I think it would show up in any blood
tests I have done.” Aha! That tells me it’s an order-stopping
objection I have to address right upfront in my copywriting.
Michael: Did that come up for
real?
Mike: Yes. People don’t
want to pay for a B-12 supplement because, they reason that if they
were deficient in it, they’re doctor would tell them because it
would show up in their blood test.
For more exclusive interviews on
business, marketing, advertising and copywriting, go to Michael
Senoff’s
http://www.hardtofindseminars.com.
Michael: So, let’s go back to the
research, your focus group, scientific journals that published
studies and you mentioned online news group. So, I mean, how are
you using the online discussion groups for your research?
Mike: l find it valuable to
read the discussions from common, everyday people about the product
or service I’m selling. I find many golden nuggets here I use to
make my copywriting more effective.
One client told me
he pays me the big bucks because I don’t guess. I find out for sure
what people want and I give it to them. I mold the product as much
as possible to what the prospects want most and overcome their
objections. I may not be the greatest copywriter out there, but I
outwork my competition that’s why I win most of the time. I do the
work.
Michael: And the hard work is the
research mainly, right?
Mike: It’s the research,
then the mental work of figuring out what concept will pull the most
orders, and how most effectively to present it.
Michael: So, tell me about part
of your operation at your company. What does it look like?
Mike: I have two full-time
copywriters that work with me here.
Michael: Have they been with you
for a long time?
Mike: One 13 years, one 6½
years.
Michael: Are they employees or
are they like independent contractors?
Mike: They are employees
with full benefits. They are level A copywriters themselves.
Michael: Do you have a secretary?
Mike: No.
Michael: So between the three of
you, you’re doing all your own research?
Mike: Correct.
Michael: How do you work with
your two employees? Do you all have a meeting, and you say. “Here’s
the new project?” Like if I was sitting in a meeting, how do you
get started on this project? What do you say? What’s your
process? The reason I’m projecting this is there’s a lot of people
listening that have existing copywriting businesses and maybe they
want to take it to the next step and aspire to be as successful as
you and have a long term career and may be given idea what it could
look like.
Mike: My way is my way. It
may not work for them. But in my way, I’m involved heavily in all
stages of a new direct mail piece or a new Internet sales letter or
a new space ad. I’ve never been able to outsource the job of doing
the hard mental work of finding out what’s going to make this health
supplement or this information product or this investment newsletter
a multimillion dollar winner, that I have to do by myself.
Michael: So when you write copy,
do you type it or write it out or long hand?
Mike: I prefer to first
write things out long hand.
Michael: Lots of copywriters say
the headline is the most important element of success, do you agree?
Mike: It’s not that simple.
First, I would say the most important thing if you want to make
millions of dollars from direct marketing your product or service is
that you choose the right market and the right product. You can
make a fortune in certain markets, but other markets and products
are a long uphill battle.
Michael: What are your favorite
markets to write copy for?
Mike: I specialize in four
market areas: The natural health supplement field, the financial
investment field, the business opportunity field and the information
products field.
Michael: With health supplements
and information, is the aging of the population making this field
bigger and bigger, stronger and stronger?
Michael: What’s the best field?
Mike: It depends on the
product. It depends on the timing. It depends on the skill set of
the business owner and his team and how much money they have for
marketing.
Michael: How about - was that
type of market, pain relief and herbal products -being an
entrepreneur, there’s an inherent risk in being involved in that
type of industry where you’ve got to be real careful with claims,
right?
Mike: The two key things are
number one, hire a copywriter that is experienced in that field.
Number two, have an attorney that specializes in direct marketing
law for the natural health field review the copy, and sign off on
it.
Michael: On your website samples,
I saw the Berry Trim diet promotion and I know that was a huge
success.. Did you write the copy for that one?
Mike: Yes, I did.
Michael: Tell me the story about
that.
Mike: The mailing in its
various incarnations over five, six or seven year period was
probably the most mailed diet promotion ever in the United States.
Michael: Give some on the idea of
the volume of direct mail pieces mail per year on a huge winner like
that.
Mike: It mailed 25 to 30
million pieces a year.
Michael: Was it originally a tear
sheet?
Mike: Yes, it was.
Michael: Okay, were tear sheets
new at that time? Was it that format that made it really
successful?
Mike: That was a part of
it. And then you had the celebrity factor with the ex-TV star.
Gary Halbert wrote the original version.
Michael: Did he make millions and
millions on that promotion?
Mike: I don’t know.
Michael: And what was your
involvement in it?
Mike: My involvement was to
beat the control.
Michael: Did the client come to
you?
Mike: Yes, and I beat the
control and it remained the control for over two years until the
owner finally retired the project.
Michael: How did you beat the
control mailing?
Mike: I used the news
angle. I went with more of a news angle and my headline was:
Doctors and TV star reveal how a new discovery from Asia helps
overcome the chemical imbalance that keeps people fat.
Michael: How much did your
copywriting beat the control by? When you’re mailing millions of
pieces, a very small amount can mean a lot of money.
Mike: My copywriting beat
the control by 32% if memory serves.
Michael: Wow, that’s
significant. Can you give us other case study?
Mike: Yes. Agora is a very
large and successful direct marketer. They publish newsletters on
natural health and have business opportunity offers.
Michael: Did you deal with Bill
Bonner, the founder?
Mike: Yes, but he also has a
marketing director for each division. The
first copywriting I did for Agora was a huge winner. Then they flew
me to Baltimore to meet with their key people.
Michael: So once you hit a winner
for them you were like gold to them.
Mike: Yes.
Michael: I know your copywriting
for their natural health and financial investment products brought
those millions and millions of dollars.
Mike: Correct. Nina Rose
from Agora gave me a testimonial that says “Mike Pavlish’s
copywriting has been extremely profitable for us over the past seven
years, one promotion after another. He consistently beats the best
copywriters in the world that we hire.”
Michael: That’s very strong.
You’re listening to an interview on
Michael Senoff’s
http://www.hardtofindseminars.com.
Mike: Lombardi Publishing,
Michael Lombardi is one of the largest direct mailers in the world
for financial investment newsletters, natural health newsletters and
business opportunity offers. I was consulting for him about
developing new newsletters. I said I thought a newsletter about how
to make money off the boom in China could be a big winner. He
agreed, so I named the newsletter and did copywriting for a direct
mail promotion that was very successful.
My headline for it
was: The New Microsoft of China. The reason it proved so successful
is everybody knew about the economic boom in China and everyone knew
about the amazing success of Microsoft stock since the company
started. I just put the two together to illustrate a ground-floor
investment situation
So again, the
hardest work is in the research and the imagination of putting
things together from different sources to create a breakthrough
winner.
Michael: Yes, how long did the
copywriting take for that?
Mike: I think about six
weeks.
Michael: I know there’s a range
of copywriting fees listed on your website. What have you found
over the years to be the best the way to structure fees as a
professional copywriter?
Mike: I like to work on a
lower base fee plus a royalty if my copywriting is successful. But
I also offer a flat fee if that’s how the client prefers it, or if I
don’t know the client well enough yet.
Michael: In addition to your base
fee, how much of a royalty do you charge if your copywriting proves
successful?
Mike: For direct mail, my
standard royalty is $50 for each 1,000 mailings the clients sends
out.
Michael: Is it for as long as
they mail?
Mike: Yes.
Michael: How do you monitor that?
Can’t they lie to you about how many mailings they do?
Mike: I know the mailing list
brokers; I’m seeded on most every mailing list especially in the
niches that I write in. I know the reputation of people. If a
person tries to play games, I can prove my case and I go after them
aggressively.
Michael: So, we talk about list
brokers. There’s not much information out there on list brokers.
Mike: Yes, they’re secretive
little bunch, aren’t they?
Michael: Yes, they are. What
advice could you give entrepreneurs about list brokers compared to
maybe getting a subscription to the SRDS direct mailing list and
doing your research on your own? Is it good to have a list broker?
Mike: Well, I have a theory
that only 2% of people in any business are really very good at it –
I mean exceptional. If you find that 2% in a copywriter and the
list broker, it’s gold. Yes it’s very important because there’s a
lot of tricks to direct mail that novices don’t know until they get
to the top level, like you can get deals where you are the first
mailer that can mail a certain list, and a competitor can’t mail it
until at least seven days after that. So, it’s fresh name and he
hasn’t been mailed to 20 times before.
Michael: So, for instance you
will see a list with hotlines and you’ll negotiate for first
position?
Mike: You’ll have a huge
advantage.
Michael: That’s a great secret.
Can you give me something else like that on mailing lists?
Mike: I tell you where a lot
of people go wrong in renting mailing lists that do not work for
them. They rent the list and they don’t pay attention to the source
of the list or the terms of the offer. Let’s say you rent a list of
names but the people didn’t have to pay any money upfront or only
paid $5 shipping and handling. But the data card for this mailing
list says people paid $100 which maybe they did but it was from a
soft offer.
Michael: So, what you’re saying
is some of these data cards may not be accurate?
Mike: You have to dig. You
have to research into these data cards and find out how was it sold?
What were the terms?
Michael: So, whose job is it to
dig out that information? The broker’s job, is that why he’s there?
Can he provide that service? Can he get the original piece of that
list was generated from? A good list broker, is that what he’s
there for?
Mike: Absolutely.
Michael: The broker does that.
So, if you have a list owner who’s not willing to do that or can’t
verify the source of the list or how was it generated, you better
move on?
Mike: Run don’t walk.
Michael: Other than your
copywriting business, do you have other entrepreneurial ventures
going
Mike: Yes, I have two direct
marketing businesses now.
Michael: Do you like that better
than the actual copywriting business? Is it more profitable?
Mike: Yes and no.
Michael: You hear people say “if
he’s such a great copywriter then why doesn’t he write his own copy
and get rich instead of for other people?”
Mike: I do write copy for
myself and sell my own products. Marketers should ask that, yes,
absolutely. But the other side of the coin is, just because a
copywriter does not sell its own products, that does not mean he’s
not a great copywriter.
Michael: I agree.
Mike: A completely different
skill set is required for success.
Michael: Can you give us one more
copywriting success story?
Mike: Commodity Trend
Service is a newsletter that tells people how to make money
investing in commodities. They’ve been around a long time so they
had most of the core investors as customers already. My research
and questioning of them led me to target non-commodity investors who
wanted to make money and would assume a certain level of risk but
did not know about commodity investing. And I came up with the idea
the mailing should be like a how-to course, telling people how they
can get into making money in commodities. So, the headline was:
“The 7 Secrets to Getting Rich from Commodity Investing – It’s
Easier Than You Think! “ So, that mailed millions and brought in
tens of thousands of new subscribers. See, concept is everything
when it comes to successful copywriting and marketing. Imagination
is the key.
Michael: You like to put specific
numbers in your headlines, don’t you?
I love to. One of
the best headlines I ever wrote was for a computerized liquor
control unit sold to bar owners. It automatically limited alcohol
shots to 1 ounce so bartenders couldn’t pour over-sized shots or
give out free shots. My headline was “Here’s how to make an extra
$125.00 a day that you’re losing from liquor over pours and free
shots … and it cost you only $4.32 a day.”
Michael: Do you structure your
fees differently when you’re doing a beat the control piece compared
to fresh piece that there’s no copy written for it previously?
Which do you prefer?
Mike: Oh, I like them both,
if the product’s right and the client’s right. My fee is the same
for both because maybe I’m not very bright, but I need to spend a
lot of time in a beat the control scenario because it’s harder to
beat a big winner than come up with new copywriting. So while I’m
writing fewer words, I may spend more time on it overall.
Michael: When you’re trying to
beat a control, do you write new copy and build a new concept? Or
will you look for weaknesses in the existing control and try to
improve on what’s already working?
Mike: It depends on what I
think is necessary to come up with something that makes millions of
dollars in profits. I would say half of time I do new copy, half of
the time I do more of a “tweak”.
Michael: Do you have clients
you’ve written for long term?
Mike: Yes, I do. Most of
the copywriting I do now is for clients who’ve been hiring me for
over 10 or 15 years and more.
Michael: Let me ask you this
question. How do you handle the copyright issues? Do you keep
control of the copyright and license the client to use your copy?
Mike: No, my client owns
everything.
Michael: Do you do consulting and
what are your fees?
Mike: Well, one day is the
minimum and its $5,400.00 plus expenses. I consult on almost all
areas of direct response marketing success including product
development, business development, new product ideas, etc.
Michael: What if I want to get in
to the copywriting business. What advice would you have to get that
first client?
Mike: I think the
copywriting field is more overcrowded now than anytime I’ve ever
seen. I would not recommend anyone get into it now.
Michael: Why is that? Is it the
proliferation of how to make money as a copywriting courses?
Mike: Yes. Most direct
marketers have 20 or more copywriters trying to sell them now.
Michael: So all these
inexperienced copywriters are soliciting direct marketers to hire
them to do copywriting?
Mike: Yes, and the best
marketers just turn down all newer copywriters because of this.
They’re just so many amateurs that are approaching them and they
just stick with ones they know are good. It doesn’t make any
financial sense for them spending all their time and money with the
amateurs.
Michael: Well, how do they break
in? Let’s say there are some very talented copywriters out there,
they may not even realize they’re an A-level but they want to break
in.
Mike: I don’t have a good
answer. It’s not a good market anymore as I see it. But if it’s
someone’s dream, I don’t want to take away their dream.
Michael: I hear you are often
booked up for months in advance?
Mike: Yes.
Michael: So, once you get in, and
you deliver a great result, that’s what can happen?
Mike: Yes.
Michael: Have you used audio
interviews in any of your promotions that came in the mail with a
sales letter or any feedback or advice on how to use audio
components in pumping up response in the mailing or a website?
Mike: I think it’s a
no-brainer to test in certain situations
Michael: I appreciate all the
copywriting secrets and tips you revealed to me from a true
copywriting legend. How can the listeners find out more about
your copywriting?
Mike: There’s a book I
wrote. You can get it at my website
www.profitboosterscopy.com On this website, there’s samples,
helpful articles and more. if you meet what I’m looking for in a
client you can call me at (330) 963-0330. And the website again is
www.profitboosterscopy.com.
For more exclusive interviews on business, marketing, advertising and
copywriting, go to Michael Senoff’s
http://www.hardtofindseminars.com. That’s the end of our
interview with Mike Pavlish. If you’d like Mike, please email me at
michael@michaelsenoff.com or contact Mike through his website.
Thanks for listening.
Visit
www.profitboosterscopy.com. Make sure you tell him Michael
Senoff sent you so you get treated like the king that you are.
|
